Madison: First of all, I think in general, we don't listen to women, so let me just start with that. So, this whole thing around...the upper two-thirds of the vaginal canal having less innervation and therefore [are] less likely to experience pain, is baloney. So, if someone is telling you they're in pain, believe them, right? And so, I do think that there is something to be said about looking at those trends and then realizing that maybe there is something going on, right?
I was actually just on a call with some folks from the Clinical Consultation Line that mainly takes questions around HIV and hepatitis and those kinds of things, but they also get some questions around, substance use disorder and sort of a syndemic approach. And so, one of the things that they were saying is that one of the reasons why they love having folks from all over the country call in and give them information is that they tend to be that [sort of] litmus test to see trends, if they keep getting calls [about] similar things. One of the things was xylazine, they were seeing all of these folks that were getting these really crazy wounds and [they were] trying to figure out what was happening. And so, again, this is where data really does help drive change. If there are a bunch of people talking about 1 topic, maybe we should pay attention to that topic.
Steier: Totally, totally agree. And to your point, it totally it really is such a double-edged sword, right? It allows bad information, unfortunately, to travel really quickly, but it also allows—I mean, clearly, we're here, you know, we found a home on social media, putting out information. It is also a source of good information, and to what you to the point that you just made, it's sort of a two-way line, right? We can put out the information, but then it also allows us to listen to the people, and to be then responsive to their concerns, their questions, and again, knowledge gaps and all that good stuff. Could not agree more.
Key Takeaways:
- Data-Based and Evidence-Informed Decisions: Using her podcast, Unbiased Science, Dr. Jessica Steier explains that she doesn’t intend to tell people what scientific opinions to have. Instead, she encourages listeners to use data and factual information to create their own evidence-based decisions to avoid falling for misinformation and disinformation.
- Misinformation Versus Disinformation: Dr. Steier explains that the difference in these terms revolves around intent. Misinformation refers to the unintentional spreading of inaccurate information, whereas disinformation is the intentional spread of false information. Dr. Steier also highlights a study conducted by the Center for Countering Digital Hate which found 12 people were responsible for the bulk of disinformation surrounding vaccines.
- The Benefits of Social Media: Although social media has been harmful in spreading misinformation and disinformation, Dr. Steier and Dr. Christina Madison discuss how it has been beneficial in emphasizing previously underdiscussed topics. As an example, they note the pain that women experience during IUD insertion, and how the mass discussion of that topic has encouraged health care practices to begin offering solutions and additional education.
Madison: One thing I wanted you to just kind of explain—because I think some folks still don't really understand the term[s] mis[information] or disinformation—and even just saying that someone is lying, I think it's so interesting that you don't necessarily hear someone just being completely fact-checked and [saying], "This person is lying." Can you talk about what that difference is—malicious intent versus non-malicious intent, [or] unintentional versus intentional—when it comes to spreading things that are not factual?
Steier: You just hit the nail on the head, the difference between misinformation and disinformation is intentionality. So, when someone spreads misinformation, they don't know that what they're spreading is inaccurate information. So, [for example,] if you have an aunt who reshares a post saying "vaccines can cause autism"—which they do not—they're doing it because they heard this bit of information, obviously it sparked concern, and so they're sharing it often with good intentions, right? Whereas disinformation is you know the information that you're putting out is inaccurate, and yet, you're still putting it out. There was an interesting—and I'm probably going to botch this—study done by, I believe it was the Center for Countering Digital Hate. And they did a study [where] they found that there were 12 people that were responsible for the large majority of bad information [about vaccines] circulating online, and they coined the term the "disinformation dozen." And so there were a dozen people...the large majority of [this] disinformation tracked back to those 12 people. And when you look at the earnings for these people, there is money to be made because...when you're pushing out information, if you grow your platform enough and you're willing to accept sponsorships and funding when you don't care about the legitimacy or the accuracy of your information, you could make a whole lot of money, right?
And the funny [thing is]—I don't know if it's funny or sad, I don't know if I should laugh or cry—I don't know about you, but I get accused all the time of being a shill for pharma, and all these things. No, I'm not shilling anything, I'm just spreading credible evidence-based information, maybe you should take a look at the paychecks of people who are putting out bad information. And don't get me started on how folks forget that some of alternatives to the pharma world, like supplements, chiropractic, essential oils...those are multibillion—if not, trillion dollar industries. Those are for profit machines, and so, I'm not quite sure why there's this double standard. They're lining the pockets of those people who are putting out this bad information, steering people away from pharma, which is so—I don't need to tell you—tightly regulated for safety, for efficacy, and [instead] steering them towards these alternatives which have none of that. You know, there's no oversight, it's like the Wild West.
Madison: I really want to make sure, we're not bad mouthing anything alternative, we're just saying do [the] work, right? Make sure that whatever you're putting in your body, whatever you're endorsing, whatever information [you're putting] out there, that you do your own due diligence to find out, is this a reputable source, is this based in real information. And then really understand what is a reputable source? Because I do think the public—from a health literacy standpoint, and from an education standpoint—if something is flashy, pretty, and looks nice, and the person who is saying the information is someone that you identify with, that you feel like you have shared and lived experience, of course you're going to take their information and you're going to internalize it and think that it's good for you.
But again, just remember, what is the motivation, right? Always look to see does this say [it is a] sponsored post, is this an ad, does this have a twinge of "maybe this sounds a little too good to be true?" Just take a moment and think for a second. We're not saying everything else is bad, only use something that has, [for example,] a double-blind, placebo-controlled trial with it. We're not saying that, we're saying just do your due diligence and make sure that the person that is giving that information on the other side doesn't have a motivation to tell you something that's incorrect. And then also, is that person a licensed health care professional? Does that person have a degree? Because if they don't, and they're giving you health information, you need to take a pause.
Steier: Thank you for saying that. And to be very crystal clear, there's no judgment. I mean, I understand, first of all why people even seek out alternatives, right? Oftentimes, these are people dealing with chronic conditions, chronic pain, and they're seeking relief, and so, I totally, totally get it. For me, my bone to pick is with the folks who intentionally sell snake oil or [are] giving bad information to people and disinforming them.
Madison: We call those "confidence men," or con men—or women, for that matter—but that is where that comes from...and it was like, door-to-door salesmen, and even going back farther, it's apothecaries that were not sanctioned, and then that's how you saw the pharmacy world and the medical world divide. Because at one point, they were actually combined, and most medical education was done through apprenticeship. And so, then you would see reputation...like, you would have this 1 person, [they] would get an apprenticeship, and then would basically take over their practice once they were retiring. But then what happened is, you saw these people kind of pull away and then they started doing these tonics and potions, and they would travel through these traveling fairs. Then they would sell these remedies that really were not real remedies...and the origins of some of these things are really interesting when you look back and it's stuff that we, you know, we still deal with today.
So, I just want to give you just a couple moments to chat a little bit about your podcast—now that you've got season 5 [and are] getting ready to hit the hit the paces—and what folks can expect, where they can find information about the podcast, and then also where people can find you on social media.
Steier: Thank you so much. As you said—I still can't believe it—[we're] gearing up for season 5 of the podcast, which is—we're not exactly sure when episode 1 is going to drop, it might be August 21, or the 28th—at the end of August for sure. I can give you a spoiler, I haven't even shared this publicly yet, but the first episode is going to focus specifically on Alzheimer [disease.] It's been in the news quite a bit in terms of...
Madison: ...multiple drug companies and different drug approvals, yeah.
Steier: Exactly. And I was actually joined by this awesome postdoc researcher from Northwestern [University], Dr. Sarah Scheinman, who joined me for a great conversation. She's a neurobiologist actually doing that bench research on Alzheimer drugs and really trying to understand...because there's so much we don't understand about Alzheimer disease. And by the way, just as a side note, I think that's so important for folks in science and public health to acknowledge that we don't have definitive answers to things. Science is about the discovery of information, this is an ongoing process, and I feel like people misunderstanding that can sometimes make it seem like we got things wrong. It's not that we were wrong, it's that we just we learned something new, our knowledge evolved.
So, that's episode 1. A lot of my focus for this season and for my content on social media is I'm calling it my "bridge-building era," I really want to focus on those hard-to-reach populations, the skeptics, and specific pockets of the population that are more likely to mistrust the scientific and medical establishment, hearing their concerns, responding to them, lots about pharma, lots about foods that we eat...there's so much misinformation and fear-mongering about the ingredients in our foods, and this like blanket vilification of processed foods, for example, and there's so much information out there, and I feel like we're becoming this society that's really driven by fear. I think a lot of it stems from not having accurate information, and so, that's my goal for this season of Unbiased Science. So, you can tune into the podcast on any platform where you listen to podcasts, it's [called] Unbiased Science Podcast, or you can follow along on social media at @unbiasedscipod. So, that's where you can check out the content.
Madison: Awesome. And then, I always try to end with this question as well...If you were able to talk to your younger self now that you have all of this knowledge, what would you tell yourself and why?
Steier: That is a great question. What would it be? I guess there are so many times in my career where I felt like I was really reaching a breaking point, where I was hitting a brick wall, I mean, especially when we're talking about entrepreneurship, where you hear "no" a lot more than you hear in the beginning. But basically, I would just tell my younger self to not be so hard on myself and to not take it as a sign of failure. I know that might be cliche, but genuinely...none of those things, if those things didn't happen, I wouldn't be where I am here today. So, don't take those things as failures. Obviously, I kept going but at so many points I was like, "Wow, I lost. Why am I doing this? I'm a failure." And if your heart is in something, you have to listen to that inner voice, especially if you're in a field like public health, which...at the heart of all of this, is a desire to do good and to leave the world a better place than when we entered it, and so, I think just staying true to your mission...I'm just thinking about Jessica through the years, and how many times I wanted to give up. I'm proud that I didn't, but I'd probably be a little less hard on myself.
Madison: Yes, and I'm sure those half a million folks that you touch their lives on a regular basis through your contact with social media would have been very sad if you had given up.
Steier: Oh, well, thank you. Thank you for that, and thank you for everything that you are doing, [it's] such an honor to talk to you and just to count you as a friend and a colleague and [I'm] excited for all that's to come.
Madison: Absolutely. Well, I just wanted to say thank you again for your time today, because I know you're busy, too. We are recording this right before our kiddos are supposed to go back to school, so you know, I think that we do our best to be all the things as moms, wives, and business owners, and the struggle is real. And...in spite of all of that, you're still dedicated to improving the lives of others, it means a lot, and I think that we should all strive for that. Because I know I come from a place of service and [I] really wish and hope that more folks with degrees and folks with knowledge and understanding could do more to be on social media so that we could dispel a lot of the mis[information] and disinformation out there. So, thank you for what you do, and I will continue to be a fan and I hope that we have birthed a few more with this episode. So, thank you.
Steier: Thank you.
Madison: All right, everyone, this has been another episode of Public Health Matters. I am your host, Dr. Christina Madison, also known as the public health pharmacist. And remember, public health matters.
You can learn more about Unbiased Science podcast and Vital Statistics Consulting, and follow them on social media:
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